JACK TRUE ON TIME AND SPACE
MARCH 8, 2011. In this conversation, from 1990, hypnotherapist Jack True discusses the space-time continuum.
Q (Rappoport): How does hypnotic trance relate to space-time?
A(Jack True): That’s a question I’ve looked into for years. First of all, all trances are not equal. I have my own way of putting people into a light trance, which isn’t deep enough for suggestions to have any effect. It’s about getting a patient into a place where he is able to focus clearly without any distractions. But there is something else, too. In this state of mind, he’s not tied so closely to physical reality. He’s aware of it, but he’s floating. He’s a bit removed from its influence. He’s not so much a slave to it. He’s, you could say, in a different space, and a different time.
Q: He’s in a dream state?
A: Not quite. More like a pre-dream state, just before a dream begins.
Q: Does this have something to do with why sleep is so important?
A: Well, sleep is necessary for several reasons. But in this sense, it’s important because the shackles that tie a person to physical-reality space and time are unhooked. He can go elsewhere.
Q: And why does that matter?
A: Because the space-time continuum is just one reality. And at some level, a human being knows this. That’s the point, you see. He knows this. And he doesn’t want to stay glued to that one reality. Why should he? There are lots of other places to go. And those places, in certain respects, are far more interesting and fulfilling.
Q: You keep coming back to this theme.
A: I have to. It’s central. Desire precedes reality.
Q: That’s an interesting way to put it.
A: It’s accurate. So if a person becomes all wound up in this continuum—which of course he does—than he loses sight of what? Desire. Because it seems then that reality defines what can be legitimately desired. Everything is backwards. Desire becomes diluted and blunted. And that’s when people lose power.
Q: There is pressure to desire something you can make and sell.
A: Yes, and that’s a culture that reflects this obsession with “the one and only reality.” If you desire to create something that maybe other people can’t understand and won’t buy…well, reality-governing-desire steps in and says ARE YOU CRAZY? People think they make no sacrifice by adjusting their desires, but they do. They build up frustration. They accumulate stress. They want to break out. They’re told they need to grow up and act like everyone else—but that’s not it. The space-time continuum and gravity and the way energy works and all the rest of it…in one sense, it’s hype. Pure hype. It’s a message that says: you can’t go against the laws. You can’t move into other dimensions. But think about music. You can create any tempo you want to. You can make a whole new space or series of spaces. You’re inventing space and time. It’s right there. People just don’t want to follow the implications.
Q: Is the mind in some way married to this continuum?
A: I don’t think so. Does your mind keep you from breaking some rule? At bottom, YOU do. It isn’t something like a mechanism of mind, although that would make a good science fiction story. It’s you. But when I work with a patient, at some point he realizes that I don’t care about any of that. He can float right off the chair and it’s fine with me. He can disappear and reappear in London, and that’s okay with me. A kind of partnership develops in that way with some of my patients, and it makes a great deal of difference.
Q: In that sense, you’re like the patient’s subconscious.
A: Yes, that’s right. In his subconscious, he has all sorts of desires that involve going beyond this continuum—and that’s the way I am.
Q: None of this involves religion.
A: Religion? That’s indefinite postponement.
Q: It’s the idea that, in order to reach beyond this continuum, you have to be in debt and you have to be discharging that debt.
A: In what I do, there is no owing. No one is beholden to me for anything.
Q: Do you see space and time of this universe as being connected?
A: I think that’s a hoax. Space is curved and space and time merge in some way? What? I don’t see it. It just seems like apples and oranges. A distraction. A diversion. A confusion that adds to the problem. Maybe it’s a way of expressing a latent desire to become a master of space and time. But time is all about duration…and space is a stage set. Just because space and time are integrated in equations doesn’t mean they actually merge. Would you say that the men in a rocket are merged with the fuel in the engines? Poetically, maybe. But physically? No.
Q: Let’s get back to this partnership you mentioned, between you and the patient.
A: It’s a key. The reason I’m tapping into his very deep desires to go beyond the space-time continuum is because I understand that. It’s not just a “therapeutic device.” It’s me. Suppose a patient tells me he sees an astral location and he describes it. I could discount that and move on. But of course I don’t, because I KNOW he’s feeling a new power and eagerness welling up in him, he’s moving into a place he really wants to be, and I want to be in a place like that, too. I want to go exploring. I keep saying this in different ways, but…it has everything to do with repressed desire, on a level that is immense. At that level, the person is all about going beyond the reality defined by this universe. It isn’t just a passing fancy. We all have this tendency to say, “Well, it’s raining today, so we can’t go outside.” But underneath that, we don’t care. Rain is not a problem. We don’t care about the excuses we give ourselves. We want more. We want to experience magic. You see, think about Freud. He had a propensity to define repression in terms of sex. That was where he was tuning in. He made a life out of that. That was the level of repressed desire he was looking at. I’m talking about something that is buried much deeper in the psyche, in the subconscious. To turn away from it would be absurd. To turn away and say, well, that’s not real, that’s not doable, that’s not a subject for therapy…why would you do that? It’s staring you right in the face. It’s there. So the first thing a person needs to do is admit he has this desire for magic, for going past all the supposed limits of this physical reality. He has to see and feel that desire in himself.
Q: Are space and time powerful inhibitors and limiters?
A: I prefer to think of them as delusions.
Q: In what sense?
A: Let’s say you’re in a car and you’re driving along a road. The road is very long. It seems never to end. You keep driving. You believe this road is the only one. You think if you’re driving, you’re on that road. Where else would you be? But of course, there are a million other roads. And–
Q: You can invent roads, too.
Q: The subconscious knows this?
A: For my purposes, in my work, the subconscious is a generalized term that indicates an interior place where a repressed desire of great proportions is kept under wraps.
Q: What’s real versus what’s delusional—that’s a tricky subject.
A: Yeah. Part of the reason is semantic. You’re using the words in different ways. On one level, physical reality, space and time are very real. But we foster a delusion by thinking they’re the only space and time. On another level, space and time are invented—they’re not just “there.” This is the subject of a great deal of myth, which is an attempt to understand who made the continuum. And, as with any unsettled argument, some people will step in and try to use the situation for their own benefit. But in the meantime…musicians make their own space and time, which is different from the continuum, and you can see by the response of the audiences that this invention has great power and desire associated with it…with music, people are responding to a new universe that is being created.
Q: The creative is the trump card.
A: The energy of it is–